Curse

madriel222 · Feb 11, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

As one without EotN quite yet, I can say with certainty that despite UB's abhorrent power, its effect on the game (especially the elite dungeons/areas) has been both a burden and a blessing. On one hand, it has been an absolute nightmare trying to find a PuG not only for DoA, but for any of the elite areas. Now granted, it is probably in the best interest of the PuG to run UB. Why? PuG's have a terrible tendency of failing as it relies on all members to be on their game. UB takes some of that risk away, upping the chance for success. All you here in the DoA local chat is "GLF Ursan." I think it's fair to say that these aren't "n00bs" denying the acceptance of any other legitimate build, but rather wanting to succeed even if there is a weak link in their chain, so to speak. Oh well, only the rare PuG for me nowadays.

On the other hand, there still is a cluster of individuals who decline the Ursanway and want to deliver the beat down to Mallyx and his minions the old fashioned way. Whether they are veterans looking for a challenge or individuals like me who don't possess EotN, these players are few and far between, but, and I tell this through my own personal experience, these have been some of the best PvE players I've had the pleasure of meeting. Everyone needs to be on the same page and at the top of their game to have a relatively fast and successful run through an elite area. In general, non-UB groups that I have entered have had such qualities. Imagine my surprise when a group actually asked me to drop my BiP necro in place of an assassin! An assassin? In DoA? Turns out miracles do happen. There are players out there wanting to play for the challenge of the game, despite the existence of the highly potent outlet available to them.

So don't be so disgusted with how UB has changed the face of GW's elite levels. Should you decide to forgo the way of the bear, should you find that rare group still itching for a challenge, I think you'll be very happy when you stand over Mallyx's dead body with sword and shield after an epic battle.

isamu kurosawa · Feb 11, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by enmitee

this is the root of all class discrimination making UB the EXACT reason why these classes that "need to change their build" can play in PUGs without trying to be nice to some elitist players who will only accept you if your a hb/terra/renewal nuke/ss/bip.

Funny how the most elitest players are the worst isn't it?

Sab · Feb 11, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by enmitee

this is the root of all class discrimination making UB the EXACT reason why these classes that "need to change their build" can play in PUGs without trying to be nice to some elitist players who will only accept you if your a hb/terra/renewal nuke/ss/bip.

Did you actually read on? If you did, you'd know how anyone can complete any area with any profession, without resorting to Ursan. Stop whining about elitists and blaming class discrimination - take initiative. Ursan dumbs down so many aspects of GW and hands them to you on a nice silver platter. People who need this don't deserve to be beating the hardest areas of the game.

KalleDamos · Feb 11, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

*sarcasm* While Anet fixes Ursan, lets fix SY, TntF, NRA, Cry of pain and every other PvE spesific skill till they fit with the meta!*/sarcasm*

It is PvE, it is a good skill, it counter's stupidity, it makes even casual players able to run the more 'elite' areas in PvE. It is not broken, it does not need fixing. Like others have suggested if you don't like it and you build discrim because of it, go play PvP you whinners. But serioulsy, not broken, no need for a fix, and if you cannot aggre, please gtfo and go play WoW where all the skills are the same and there is no real concept of a 'build' as we GW players know it. Danke.

Orange Milk · Feb 11, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I really do not like Ursan and have no idea why ANet even placed it in the game. There are something like 1100 skills available for PvE use. Ursan blessing is one skill that changes your entire bar, so now all those 1100 or so other skills go out the door to get covered with dust and never used.

If YOU or your team can not come up with a build out of 1100 plus skills to defeat an area/mission/quest and run Ursan all the time you need to uninstall. PvE is already easy enough.

Some guy on page one othis posted about being "lucky" enough to come up with an origional build. It's not luck, it's just a tad bit of work, the tools are there (1100 plus skills + Wiki + Time + Effort = Win)but hey when you have a "easy win" Ursan Blessing button to push, who wants to do that? Why create a bar full of skills when you can just click one skill that fills your bar for you?

Ursan basically makes this game dummy, it's bad for the game imo, but it's here and it's never gonna go away or get nerfed, PvE only skills don't get nerfed. Too bad most all the PvE Only skills need torched as they are unbalanced and foolish.

KalleDamos · Feb 11, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Unbalanced? You sir, make me laugh.Who is going to complain, the monsters? Do we hear Shiro crying about being ganked in 2 minutes? Do the Destroyers cry about snares and interupts behind our backs? While PvE is easy, and while I'm all for original builds you need to think for a second. Who is more likely to get into a group. Someone running Ursan or someone running a unique build that no one has heard of and most people think 'looks shakey'. It is not about being lazy, its about being able to get into a group.

You are thinking PvP sir. In PvE little needs to be 'balanced.' PvE skills make it easier than it need to be, i admit but they do not need to be balanced. If they started to balance them they would not be unique PvE skills. They would just be skills, just be other skills. They would not stand out, they would not be unique, and they would more than likely be crap. So yeah, balance is not the option to these.

Pyro maniac · Feb 11, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalleDamos

Unbalanced? You sir, make me laugh.Who is going to complain, the monsters? Do we hear Shiro crying about being ganked in 2 minutes? Do the Destroyers cry about snares and interupts behind our backs? While PvE is easy, and while I'm all for original builds you need to think for a second. Who is more likely to get into a group. Someone running Ursan or someone running a unique build that no one has heard of and most people think 'looks shakey'. It is not about being lazy, its about being able to get into a group.

You are thinking PvP sir. In PvE little needs to be 'balanced.' PvE skills make it easier than it need to be, i admit but they do not need to be balanced. If they started to balance them they would not be unique PvE skills. They would just be skills, just be other skills. They would not stand out, they would not be unique, and they would more than likely be crap. So yeah, balance is not the option to these.

stop posting please and learn to play something else then ursan

Abedeus · Feb 11, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalleDamos

Unbalanced? You sir, make me laugh.Who is going to complain, the monsters? Do we hear Shiro crying about being ganked in 2 minutes? Do the Destroyers cry about snares and interupts behind our backs? While PvE is easy, and while I'm all for original builds you need to think for a second. Who is more likely to get into a group. Someone running Ursan or someone running a unique build that no one has heard of and most people think 'looks shakey'. It is not about being lazy, its about being able to get into a group.

Read again my post and please, give a build better than one skill - UB. There is no single build or a team build that can do so much as UB. If they, for example, gave those UB skills 5-10 energy cost, it would require some skill to use it. Or use of e-management.

Oh, and basing on your logic - They nerfed Spirit Bonders, 1/4 second cast Shield of Absorption or Protective Bond monks because mobs were complaining?

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 11, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I think most people on Guru have a problem with Ursan because it takes very little skill to use.

Regardless of the low skill it takes to use, it is still one of the most powerful builds, if not the most, in the game, for general PvE and elite missions.

Simply because it is easy to use does not render it weak.

As a monk (my current class, and I have played all of them, some extensively some not, and found Monk to be my favourite) I would rather a pack of r10 Ursans as the rest of my team (monks obviously don't use Ursan Blessing unless you have too many monks, and Ritualists are probably better as high-powered healers than as Ursans) than to go with whatever the players thought up themselves, which is usually very terrible.

And in the cases when it isn't (and often this means a wiki'd HM Balanced team build, which loses all your credibility for original builds since you basically just took it off wiki. I'm looking at the DoA players who run 1 warrior, 3 eles, 1 necro, 3 monks and then attempt to say that they're more original than the Ursans...) the 'skilled' build is harder to use and hence lowers success chances.

I'll take an easy-to-get, high rate of success victory over a hard-to-do, difficult to succeed victory any day. Efficiency FTW.

Abedeus · Feb 11, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I'll take an easy-to-get, high rate of success victory over a hard-to-do, difficult to succeed victory any day. Efficiency FTW.

So why not take bots or hacks? Efficiency > game balance, no?

Jetdoc · Feb 11, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I think most people on Guru have a problem with Ursan because it takes very little skill to use.

I thought one of the key cornerstones of GW was "Skill over time spent"?

KennyC · Feb 11, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Ursan needs to be hit hard. Really, really hard with a giant kevlar coated nurfbat. There is no skill involved in it's capture or the grind associated with the max level.

In fact, I'd go as far as removing it from the game entirely.

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 11, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If you're not finding your subsequent runs through the game any less challenging, then you're not learning anything from your previous runs. The game itself doesn't change, but *you* can. If you keep running the same crappy bars, then of course the game is going to be difficult. But, if you learn from your previous experiences and tailor your build to each specific area, then you'll find the game much easier. However, you can bypass all this learning and slap Ursan on your skill bar.

EXACTLY - it is your choice on how to play through the game. How you choose to play has no effect whatsoever on my game playing experience in PvE, and vice versa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Okay, so even with Ursan, you can't run out of your monk's range and aggro the entire map and expect to survive. That's common sense, and nothing to do with Ursan. The *build itself* still requires no skill - there are three buttons you hit on recharge. You'd have to intentionally play bad in order to screw up an Ursan bar.

And I can say the same about many other builds as well. The current popular sin build is a snoozer for me. I c+space, and run down the skillbar - rinse and repeat. UB is not unique in this regard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

As for dealing with class discrimination, you deal with it the same way you'd deal with rank discrimination in HA. Start your own groups, or make friends and join their groups, or use some social skills and talk your way into pugs.

And this is what UB has provided to many players - a chance to avoid the usual CD nonsense and form groups of their own. Your statement can actually be applied to those who claim they can't find a non-Ursanway group as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Here's a question to you: can you conceive of any skill which you would consider unbalanced?

Let's imagine a skill which when used insta-kills all the mobs on the map and teleports the drops to you. You're not forced to use this skill; it's completely voluntary. Is this skill overpowered? Unbalanced? Game breaking?

Or is it perfectly fine?

No, this skill is overpowered - it also has no relation to UB whatsoever. The skill you describe is Godmode. However, Godmode is not game breaking - see Doom for proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Did you actually read on? If you did, you'd know how anyone can complete any area with any profession, without resorting to Ursan. Stop whining about elitists and blaming class discrimination - take initiative. Ursan dumbs down so many aspects of GW and hands them to you on a nice silver platter. People who need this don't deserve to be beating the hardest areas of the game.

So, any game that offers an easy mode, and players of that game who play easy mode should not be allowed to finish the game? Sounds pretty silly to me. Everyone playing this game paid the same $50 to enjoy the priveledge. I personally see no problem with having a way for everyone to enjoy every part of what Anet created, regardless of how they go about doing it. Hey, if the worst player in this game wants to use UB to go an kill Mallyx, as long as they are having fun playing the game - I don't give a rat's petootie about. How they play the game has no bearing on how I get enjoyment out it. But perhaps that's because I don't really give a rat's petootie about status symbols and player rankings in this game anyway.

Hanok Odbrook

enmitee · Feb 11, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Did you actually read on? If you did, you'd know how anyone can complete any area with any profession, without resorting to Ursan. Stop whining about elitists and blaming class discrimination - take initiative. Ursan dumbs down so many aspects of GW and hands them to you on a nice silver platter. People who need this don't deserve to be beating the hardest areas of the game.

then tell me this, why do most groups, not saying all, would not attempt to invite my mesmer into a group unless is t were guildies and friends? or a good restoration rit in balanced fow builds? from the way i see it, its the noobs that want you to run "the build they want" that resort other noobs or people, to resort to ursan blesssing as most random PuGs they go to will not let them run the build that they want to test unless they are friends or guildies.

KalleDamos · Feb 12, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Hanok Odbrook those are some of the wiesest words I have heard on Guru.

Sab · Feb 12, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

EXACTLY - it is your choice on how to play through the game. How you choose to play has no effect whatsoever on my game playing experience in PvE, and vice versa.

Numa addressed this point, which you've failed to answer. The point was, that someone undeserving of a reward can take an easy shortcut to the reward with Ursan. Without Ursan, that person would have no other way of obtaining the reward.

If what others do in their own instance has no effect on you, then you probably won't mind a magical button that instantly maxes out all their titles, or a command that generates all the money and loot they want, or a button that fully explores the entire map and opens up all the outposts for them. While you personally may not care, can you see how others might? The point is not that Ursan does this, it's that Ursan is to a lesser degree, also a shortcut through the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And I can say the same about many other builds as well. The current popular sin build is a snoozer for me. I c+space, and run down the skillbar - rinse and repeat. UB is not unique in this regard.

No bar you can make up with normal skills has anywhere near the power or simplicity of Ursan. You're not going to use this Sin bar to complete the hardest parts of the game with the efficiency of Ursan. Not even close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And this is what UB has provided to many players - a chance to avoid the usual CD nonsense and form groups of their own. Your statement can actually be applied to those who claim they can't find a non-Ursanway group as well.

Those who claim that cry class discrimination or complain that they can't find a group are lazy (including those who can't find non-Ursan groups). I'll address this later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

So, any game that offers an easy mode, and players of that game who play easy mode should not be allowed to finish the game? Sounds pretty silly to me. Everyone playing this game paid the same $50 to enjoy the priveledge. I personally see no problem with having a way for everyone to enjoy every part of what Anet created, regardless of how they go about doing it. Hey, if the worst player in this game wants to use UB to go an kill Mallyx, as long as they are having fun playing the game - I don't give a rat's petootie about. How they play the game has no bearing on how I get enjoyment out it. But perhaps that's because I don't really give a rat's petootie about status symbols and player rankings in this game anyway.

Your first sentence is a complete misinterpretation of what I said. Firstly, finishing the game constitutes just that - beating everything up to and including the endgame missions in normal mode. Anything further is extra - Hard Mode, DoA, Urgoz, and other endgame missions and dungeons.

Secondly, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from finishing those zones without Ursan, except your own laziness. I've listed the ways to get around class discrimination already, and I've used exactly that to beat just about everything there is to beat in PvE with my Mesmer (and without resorting to Ursan).

Quote:

Originally Posted by enmitee

then tell me this, why do most groups, not saying all, would not attempt to invite my mesmer into a group unless is t were guildies and friends? or a good restoration rit in balanced fow builds? from the way i see it, its the noobs that want you to run "the build they want" that resort other noobs or people, to resort to ursan blesssing as most random PuGs they go to will not let them run the build that they want to test unless they are friends or guildies.

Since pugs are so "noob", play with guildies or friends? That seems like a pretty good idea.

Feurin Longcastle · Feb 12, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

The key question has not been answered by Ursan defenders. Can you think of any skill mechanic that could ever be considered imbalancing for PvE? Would a skill that killed all the mobs on the map with one button press be bad for the game? I should hope you think it is. Anet has in the past with PvE-specific nerfs. Now ask yourself why this is.

The same logic applies to Ursan. It obviates the need for any build design or planning. It throws any modicum of required skill completely out the window. Come up with a rationale for Ursan that doesn't apply to the Auto-Kill skill.

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 12, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Numa addressed this point, which you've failed to answer. The point was, that someone undeserving of a reward can take an easy shortcut to the reward with Ursan. Without Ursan, that person would have no other way of obtaining the reward.

Except to buy it from someone who has gotten the reward. Perhaps you missed this point I have made on more than one occasion. The status of the reward is moot if it can be bought by someone who didn't earn it. At least, with the Ursanway teams, they are actually going into the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If what others do in their own instance has no effect on you, then you probably won't mind a magical button that instantly maxes out all their titles, or a command that generates all the money and loot they want, or a button that fully explores the entire map and opens up all the outposts for them. While you personally may not care, can you see how others might? The point is not that Ursan does this, it's that Ursan is to a lesser degree, also a shortcut through the game.

Actually, I wouldn't mind that at all. Again, titles, gold, rewards, all of that is just so much fluff to me. I play this game for fun. I set my own goals and things I want to achieve. My satisfaction comes from being able to obtain those goals - not what other players may think of the visible results of those goals or rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

No bar you can make up with normal skills has anywhere near the power or simplicity of Ursan. You're not going to use this Sin bar to complete the hardest parts of the game with the efficiency of Ursan. Not even close.

True, but the point of contention here was that UB takes little skill to use. I simply argued the fact that it is not alone in that category. Regardless of whether any of the other "idiot" builds can be used in any or all areas of the game, UB is not unique to this point. However, with the proper team (just like running full Ursanway), even any of the "idiot" builds could probably be successful in the hardest parts as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Your first sentence is a complete misinterpretation of what I said. Firstly, finishing the game constitutes just that - beating everything up to and including the endgame missions in normal mode. Anything further is extra - Hard Mode, DoA, Urgoz, and other endgame missions and dungeons.

But it's still content included in the game. Personally speaking, I don't think even the "extra" content should be denied to anyone, if it is something they would enjoy playing. This is especially true for those casual gamers who simply may not have the time to dedicate to learning the intricacies of BEing their specific profession. Simply because someone plays GW part time does not mean they do not "deserve" to play and succeed in these areas using only the basic forms of tactics and strategies taught by playing through the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Secondly, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from finishing those zones without Ursan, except your own laziness. I've listed the ways to get around class discrimination already, and I've used exactly that to beat just about everything there is to beat in PvE with my Mesmer (and without resorting to Ursan).

As I have - with a character of each prime and never having to change secondary or use UB myself. As I said before (either here, or in another thread) most of the time I forget that a particular character I am playing has the skill unlocked. When I run into trouble, I simply analyze what I did wrong and head back to try different tactics. About 90-95% of the time, I succeed on one or more following runs without ever having to change one skill.

Hanok Odbrook

FlamingMetroid · Feb 12, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

IMHO if Ursan existed in rl, we could all be athlete-celebrity-geniuses in no time at all, which isn't fair to the people who dedicated time to learning something or were just born good at it. I'm siding with Sab on this one, just because I want everything in rl and that's what would make me happy doesn't mean I deserve it. Ursan takes away much if not ALL of the challenge of certain areas and the fact that someone whose been playing 4-6 months can put this on their bar and mash 3 buttons in no particular order, can be as good as someone whose been playing since release isn't fair at all.

cellardweller · Feb 12, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Except to buy it from someone who has gotten the reward. Perhaps you missed this point I have made on more than one occasion. The status of the reward is moot if it can be bought by someone who didn't earn it. At least, with the Ursanway teams, they are actually going into the area.

Price check on Mallyx statues and LV titles pls